Music could be a means to convey something outside of words (akiko)

Nakamura Words and time are major themes in my research, and actually there are parts that overlap with your story. Regarding words, I’ve finally come to realize that in the end I want to express that “words cannot express anything.” For the other one, time, we have shared time within a community, but I wonder if in reality that is not time but there is a different time flowing in each individual, there are different times flowing simultaneously. So first, I’d like to say that “time is relative, there is no such thing as common time.” Furthermore I’d like to say last “but time isn’t flowing (it isn’t continuous)”. Walsch is also saying the same kind of thing in Conversations with God.

akiko Words, words are really difficult, aren’t they? For example, like a poem that moves me, words can be wonderful, beautiful things while at the same time being very difficult. There is a quote of Wittgenstein that says “Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent,” and it’s really true, there is a limit to words. But I think their inconsistencies and dualisms are in things all throughout the world.

Nakamura That’s true. And if we go on about time, I think that the structure of the world is like an RPG (role playing game). In an RPG, there are all kinds of possibilities in the software. There is a world of limitless possibilities built from the very start, but until we play it, that world doesn’t develop. Our world is the same; each person plays his or her own role within a predetermined world - Might it not have this kind of structure? I want to investigate this from the perspective of time in my own way. I’ve been aware of this problem since I first came across Conversations with God, and I wish I could ably teach those who haven’t read it that “the world is like that.”

akiko I too think the concept of time is horizontally relative rather than vertical. And speaking about my life’s work, music, I think music could be a means to convey something in a gray area outside of words amidst the inconstancies and dualisms of words. There are lyrics and words in music, and I’d like to treat them well too. But I think music is not only that. It is also being able to express something with sound as a whole. For example, we both really like Conversations with God, but I am indeed hesitant to recommend a book with “God” in the title. Because words have an image about them, I feel the difficulty of expression.

Nakamura Wittgenstein said these kinds of things about music and words. He said he thinks that in music there is often a “theme” such as phrase that determines the song, and is not this theme the same kind of thing that we think of as “meaning” in words. For example, if you’re asked, “What is the meaning of cup?” you can answer nothing but a cup. The themes of music are also understood with “ah, it’s that theme” when heard, and there is no other way to express it. I’m aiming for that kind of discussion, so hearing what you just said, I though, “oh I see.” I just thought there might be a kind of materiality or “as-is-ness” that the words themselves have, and the meaning of “inu (Japanese for dog) is not dog”; the meaning of dog is dog and inu is inu.

I want to somehow integrate with the world. I’m searching for the method in philosophy (Nakamura)

Nakamura This kind of conversation is unneeded in everyday life, but for some reason it’s on my mind. Like you said, indeed it seems like having things on your mind from a young age is somehow different from other people. I’ve always felt out of place with my surroundings, and I tried to become part of the world somehow by doing theater and contemporary performance dance, and then I started down the road of philosophy... My current research is also searching for a way to do something about my frustration with not being able to integrate into the world through words and time. What brought you to start music?

akiko When I was in kindergarten, I saw a friend playing the organ, and I felt for some reason that I could do it too. And then, maybe because I was complimented by my friend after I wrote and played my own song. I was happy (smile). So I told my parents, and starting to go to piano class was the beginning. In junior high school and high school, I developed the music I heard from myself, and I went to used record stores and listened to all kinds of music from punk going back to rock 'n roll and jive. Actually last year, I released a rock album called HIT PARADE - LONDON NITE Tribute. I still feel that my roots are in rock.

Nakamura Well, you started singing jazz after entering to university, right?

akiko Yes. During university, my friend took me to a club to see magic, and there was an old guitarist there playing a jazz number. I happened to know the song, so I said, “Ah, I can sing this.” Like in kindergarten, I started singing jazz because for some reason I felt like I could. That might be why I never really understood the reason or meaning of my singing. But from around last year, a lot of things have finally come together inside me, and I’ve started to become aware of the meaning of my singing. Now I’ve gotten interested in how to reflect this sense of connection in my singing.

Nakamura In my case when I read Conversations with God, I had such momentum that I almost felt like “yeah, I understand it all. I don’t need to know or study anything new.” However during these last ten years, I have experienced terrible things in my real life. Now I’ve finally come to realize that the things you read and understand in your head are totally separate from the things you actually experience. It’s not something you should say when you’re old, but there really are some things you have to experience to understand (smile). Incidentally, you sing in English and French, but how about German?

akiko I don’t understand German, and when I’m recording, I have a pronunciation teacher for French too. One of the themes of today’s conversation is “words,” and I think words and music are amazingly intertwined. Because rhythm comes from the pronunciation of words. For example, if I got interested in Brazilian music like bossa nova, in my case I would want to sing in a form that accompanies Portuguese.

Nakamura In philosophy research as well, the contents and the words may be intertwined. Because meanings may be different in translation, I read the originals in German, French, and English. An interesting thing is the philosophical literature has characteristics determined by country. I feel that French philosophy is very clear, German philosophy is thorough and particular about words, and philosophy from the English speaking world is very easy to understand.

akiko There are different characteristics in each language’s sphere. In the case of Brazilian music, the contents of the poems are very deep and the position of the poet is really respected. I’d like to know more about that kind of particular culture, literature, and music of each country. That’s what I really should have studied more of in university (smile). Today I came to Chuo University for the first time in a long time, but when I look on it again I see it’s a nice place with lots of green. During university, I just thought it was “far,” but now I feel the allure of a place filled with nature away from the big city. With every year I age, I feel like I am moving back to something like the sensations of a natural human that “wants to be in contact with nature” and has interest in learning.

Nakamura To me, Chuo University is a “comfortable place to be.” I went from an undergraduate to graduate school at this university, and I’ve been here ever since, but I’ve never once felt I didn’t like it. I’m not good with places that have strong characters or strange particularities, so I feel like the atmosphere here is right for me, including the large number of relaxed, amiable students and the quiet environment. In a way it is a clear and colorless place - that to me is comfortable. Thank you very much for today.

akiko Thank you too.