Matsumoto Koshiro: It looks like an azure ocean is spreading across this tiny dial. It’s so beautiful. The coloring has both transparency and depth. How did you create these color tones?

Wataru Totani: I applied a thin layer of specially developed glaze by hand to the metal surface and fired it in the kiln. Actually, I had to repeat that process a number of times. Every time, I kept polishing the surface to gradually realize the precise intended coloring. Color tones tend to change elusively and delicately, reflecting even slight differences in firing temperature and duration. Therefore, to achieve identical color tones, I had to fine-tune one piece after another by hand.

Matsumoto: I didn’t imagine that you did everything yourself — not just glazing but also blending the glaze in advance. I understand that only a lot of work by hand makes it possible to create this particular kind of coloring. When you undertook this watch dial project, I think you had difficulties different from those in producing one-of-a-kind shippo enamel works.

Totani: For ordinary shippo enamel products, we apply glaze to create a layer that is usually 1 millimeter to 1.5 millimeters thick. However, this project required me to limit the thickness to 0.3 millimeters and even make the final product express the deep blue of the ocean. At the same time, I refrained from using lead — which accounts for about 40% of ordinary glaze — so as to comply with Seiko’s strict in-house ecological and safety standards. Lead-free glaze is prone to bubbling. Also, I had to make a set of identical shippo enamel pieces. In other words, I had to do something I’d never experienced before. It took me a considerable amount of time to be confident, to feel “This is something I can do.”

Matsumoto: In the kabuki world, when we have a month-long run, for example, I usually play the same role 25 times a month. There are times when I can’t perform very well at all, despite trying my best. Sometimes I find the solution then; other times it takes much longer, say, 10 years.

I have repeatedly experienced this in my career. I’ve never told myself: “I’ve finally done it perfectly!” If I became self-complacent enough to say, “I did it perfectly,” I’m afraid there would be no point in continuing kabuki performances or that I might even choose to quit my current career. I know such experiences cannot necessarily be easily explained and solved in logical terms. Totani-san, I think you’ve had experiences similar to mine.

Totani: I have made it my regular practice to try and solve one problem after another as I encounter them in everyday work life. This approach really strengthens my motivation for work. My motto is: Today, I will create a better product than yesterday and, tomorrow, I will create a better product than today. From that perspective, I’m sure that my participation in the Presage project has led me to look at myself in a different way and venture into a new realm.

Matsumoto: In addition to classic kabuki plays, I’ve been actively using innovative forms of performing overseas, such as putting on a new play at a skating rink instead of a theater, and adding video projections to a kabuki work. Tradition is always of great importance to us, of course. Nonetheless, I’m really looking forward to broadening the possibility of kabuki instead of resting simply on its traditions. I feel really encouraged by you, Totani-san. You’ve been endeavoring to widen the possibility of the traditional shippo method of cloisonné enameling on a special stage named “Presage.”